Friday, November 30, 2012

Daily Discussion Question: El Retorno De La Manga.

Gary Patterson has said all along that, should he get his act together, Casey Pachall would be welcome back in the spring and given every opportunity to reclaim his role as QB1.  Patterson's intentions were unquestionably honorable:  If you truly care about Casey Pachall beyond his role on the team, you have to give him hope and a reason to correct his myriad issues.  Straight up turning your back on him, while the popular opinion of the Mac Engel's of the world, would solve the issue of removing him as your own problem but would do very little towards putting him on the path to a better life. Making your problem someone else's problem does not eliminate said problem, kind of like how shaving your head doesn't make you a better sportswriter.

But still... did anyone 100% think we'd ever see CP4 suit up in purple again once he hit the trail back in October?  I know I was by no means sure.  But, according to the latest message board chatter, it seems that Casey has completed rehab, gotten rid of the poor influences he used to surround himself with, and fully intends to re-enroll this spring.

The question is, as a fan, do you even WANT him back?  The problem with Casey is that answering that question isn't as simple as yes or no.

I can see both sides.  On the one hand, GP promised the guy he could come back and what good is he as a Coach if he can't be trusted?  On the other, what guarantee do we have that he's on the straight and narrow?    With all of his receivers returning, an older, presumably better offensive line and a healthy Waymon James, ifPachall returns to form, you absolutely have a better shot at winning a Big 12 Title and beyond with him under center.  Trevone Boykin has performed admirably this season and has actually been a better QB option for this team considering our offensive line, or lack thereof, but Pachall is in a different stratosphere when it comes to throwing the ball.  True, Andy Dalton wasn't exactly a passer that put fear into defenses when he first came to TCU, but Boykin's combination of height and delivery will make it tough for him to ever be a dominate gunslinger.  Just ask Vince Young, and he's got 6 inches on TB.

However Boykin, until Tyler Matthews or some newcomer says otherwise, is the future of TCU Football at the position.  TCU has lost 4 games this year, but outside of Iowa State - a game in which Boykin was drastically underprepared - can you blame him for any of the losses?  Oklahoma State was a major defensive fail, Kansas State beat us into submission and I'm not sure where the blame should be placed for Tech, but it certainly isn't at Trevone's fleet feet.  All things equal, no way Casey scrambles to make the play TB did to hit Boyce against West Virginia, nor does he keep UT's defense off balance with his scrambling ability.  Considering what Baylor just did to Kansas State, the fact that TB put 49 on them certainly holds more merit than it did at the time as well.  All I'm saying is, since that Iowa State game, Boykin has come along much faster than just about anyone could've hoped and gotten a team that everyone gave up on to 7 wins.  Do you stunt that development in hopes that Casey really has cleaned up his act?  I think we can all agree that the team seems to be playing harder for Boykin than they did for Casey, probably because they know they can trust him to be around.  With all the second chances given to Casey by this coaching staff, will he ever be able to earn back the trust of his team, and will they even want to give it to him?  I'm not so sure.

Of course, Boykin could render this conversation moot by beating out Pachall in the spring, but I suppose the fact that he should even have to is the real issue here.

What do you guys think?


Boyce of Summer said...

SWW, glad to see your name at the bottom of posts again. If Pachall comes back the kid is gonna play. He has an NFL caliber arm and with our arsenal of WR's the offensive combo is deadly. While TB has been more than any of us ever expected, a lot of the circumstantial comparisons you are making likely would have never happened under CP4. Who knows how potent our offense would have been with him at the helm. While he definitely couldn't scramble like TB did against WVU who is to say he would have ever needed to. I get what your saying but comparing these two QB's is comparing 2 different offenses all together.

JHale said...

I say we send TB out to the QB coach in San Diego who worked with Scam, Johnny M and others and then let them all duke it out in the spring.

In a straight head to head, CP will win the battle just because of his height/delivery/accuracy. If the o-line learns how to give our QB time in the pocket then CP would be dangerous. And since he won't be boozing every night leading up to a game it is possible he gains some of that "dual threat" that was attached to him out of high school.

But there is no way around the fact that he will have to earn back the trust of the team... I bet GP has a few ideas in which he can prove it.

Sir Wesley Willis said...

Yeah I completely understand the fallacy of my comparisons, but I think it's hard to argue that, with a turnstile offensive line, having a mobile QB like TB has been invaluable and its' possible Casey might have literally died on the field halfway through the season due to his lack of mobility.

Do yall think we do better than 7-5 or 8-4 with Casey playing all season? Definitely think we beat Baylor, Iowa State and Texas. Probably beat WVU. Have a better shot against KSU, but not sure we win, and probably don't win at OSU based on all the point given up. OU is up in the air.

SwissArmyFrog said...

I don't think Boykin's progress has been as good as you stated. The coaching staff said not too long ago that Boykin was not making good decisions and missing reads...which I understood as meaning that, even as a Freshman, he should be farther along than he is.

I have no idea how injury might currently be hindering Boykin. He threw a great pass to Fuller on the first play of the Texas game, though.

We have a MONSTROUS group of wide receivers that have been seriously underused. Next year we get them all back (assuming Boyce stays) except for Dawson.

The only reason I could possibly forsee Boykin getting serious playing time from Pachall next year would be a result of seeing no improvement in our offensive line.

JHale said...
This comment has been removed by the author.
SuperSweet HornedFrog said...

may the best man win

JHale said...

I agree with your points SWW... if we look back at the games when CP was playing you will notice he was on his back almost every time he threw the ball. I do not think he would have survived the season the way our O-Line was playing.

Pros and Cons to both so it is really hard to know what throws or reads CP would have made that TB missed or even if both of CP's legs would have been broken off by now.

THEFINCH said...

Best man or most talented qb?

JT said...

I want Pachall back.

Boykin is great. He's fantastic, and I'm pumped at how well he's done. But he's ... well, he's not a talented enough passer for us to compete at our highest level. Pachall is.

Here's my ideal scenario. Pachall comes back, gets into game shape, and kicks ass, earning the starting spot. The coaches take the time in the offseason and during next season to keep Boykin fresh, getting him snaps here and there, and work on his throw.

Then, after Pachall has gone on to the NFL, we get Boykin back. Except that this Boykin has had another year and a half to work on his passing game, under the tutelage of Pachall and the great coaches at TCU. Add to that the experience he's gotten this season, and that would be a very dangerous QB. Tyler Matthews can come after or maybe he'll earn the top spot, but I want Pachall and then junior Boykin.

Skeptical Frog said...

I guess I'm in the minority, but I don't want Pachall back.
I thought were relatively unimpressive in CP's 4 games, possibly due to Pachall's problems hurting his leadership ability. It was like the team rallied around TB and stepped up, especially the younger guys. (Hell, I kinda feel like Boyce disappeared for a little bit until he realized he wasn't the automatic go to anymore with the new kid under center).

Beyond that, I'm still just kind of pissed at Pachall for all the BS he's brought on our school in what should have been a completely celebratory year. If he does come back, there had better be a legitimate and fair contest for the starting position. And I wonder how the younger guys will respond considering TB ran this team through the entire Big12 campaign (minus Kansas) after being thrown into the fire. For that matter, how will the entire locker room receive Pachall?

And do we manage to hold on to Boykin and Matthews if Pachall comes back and becomes the defacto starter until he *cough* graduates or goes pro?

I don't know. Maybe Pachall will come back and be more Dalton than Honey Badger and show himself to be a completely changed person. But honestly, I think I'd rather see him do somewhere else instead of risking another TCU season.

JHale said...

If CP wants to play in college again he can't transfer -- unless he went down a division. He will be a SR -- But since he didn't finish his degree early he can't pull a Masoli or Gilbert.

Skeptical Frog said...

Maybe we should have paid more attention to Angry Trey back in July 2011.

I wonder if Casey's Mom will get involved if CP has problems getting the starting job?

HFrog77 said...

CP has my vote. He gives us an elite-level arm. I'm betting he stays straight, as he's had time to think about the future money lost in the NFL with one more screw up.

TB has done a great job under tough circumstances -- I really admire the kid. He's also got 3 more years.

Finally, I really wonder how much TB is now preferred by our receivers, given that their ball count is now way down. For example, I don't know that Boyce has the numbers to come out in the 2013 draft. If CP comes back, I'll bet we see him in purple next year.

Miiiike said...

If Casey comes back, he and Boykin should be given the same chance to become the starting QB next fall. Boykin has played extremely well given the circumstances (lack of experience, poor O-line, depleted RB depth, etc.) but Casey Pachall is a top 3 caliber passer in CFB.

I understand the argument that we should give Boykin the experience next year because it will set us up for title runs in 2014 & 2015. The thing is, Casey is ready to lead us to titles in 2013. The guy was riding a 13 (or 12, not 100% sure) game winning streak before he was suspended. The team may play harder for Boykin, but they always know with #4 under center, we can win against any team.

Also, why not sue both of them? Mix it up and keep the defense guessing.

If he completed his treatment, he deserves another shot.

FroggerBlogger said...

If CP has got his act together there is not doubt who is the better QB for this team. Understand that today's game is modeled after a Pro Style offense (see our current monster receivers). It's all about getting a shot in the NFL baby.

Now if TCU wants to go back to the days of the Veer and Triple Option just asked those of us who remember the Jim Wacker Backer RIP days and they'll tell you, not on my watch. You'll also see a mass exodus of our current WR's.

TB is a good kid ,an athletically talented kid with probably the worst throwing mechanics I've ever seem. His future as a potential NFLer currently is as an H back / Wildcat insertion

GP and Staff would be best served to trust but verify that CP is a reliable teammate and allow him to earn the respect of the team. If successful he should have a monster year and TCU should be on the short list of National Championship contenders. Once the trust factor is resolved, they need to use some imagination and use TB as a dual threat on the field simultaneously with CP while training him to take over as a viable QB first with the ability to run 2nd in 2014 or in the event of injury to CP in 2013.
Go Frogs whip the Sooners today.

Common Sense said...

I want Pachall back. No one is scared of our passing game right now except for the offensive coordinators and Boykin.

Put Pachall in, use Boykin as a wildcat and running back, and the two defenses in the Big XII won't know where to start with Pachall's arm, and finally a healthy running game.

Maybe Boykin can get there after another year, but right now he can't read a field worth a damn and he tries to outrun every blitz. He's a runner first, maybe because he staff isn't letting him pass as much and his shoulder is still banged up, but Pachall is the better fit IMO.

Frogger98 said...

Open competition for all qb's. Who knows how the freshman develop? Let the team go with whoever is the best option and see what happens. I feel really good about the whole team for the next two years.

Reginal and Lady Luck said...

I want Pachall back, and I want a medical redshirt for him last year.

SnK said...

He played in 4 games. Can't get a medical redshirt. Also, I think bc it was a suspension then that wouldn't apply either.

THEFINCH said...

Medical marijuana redshirt?

Reginal and Lady Luck said...

I'd argue that addiction is an illness, thus could be eligible for medical redshirt.

as for "3 games or 30% whichever is greater," that is the only part I am unsure of; 4/13= 30.77%; since you get to add the bowl game into the equation.

Would the suspension even apply since he was "suspended" one game and then left tcu all together?

All of my knowledge on this is by generic internet searching, not saying I have any actual knowledge of how this works, just looking for a loophole for him, cuz Pachall is still my qb

SnK said...

You'll never see someone get a MRS for "addiction" especially when he was technically suspended for DWI, not being an addict. Also, he's play too much to even be eligible, so it's kind of a moot point.

Tyler said...

Give me Pachall please.

With Pachall there would be no reason to scramble and hit a 94 yard TD because we would already have a double digit lead. KState game would have been close, and I actually like our chances. We dominate UT with Pachall and a passing attack. In my opinion, there's no competition at this point (assuming Pachall isn't far off when he left two months ago).

Plus, after playing for a year, think about how much more Boykin will learn and understand while standing on the sideline. He will have a much greater appreciation for what he is seeing and the reads Pachall is making.

After all, our best asset is our WRs and they are currently MIA.

Sir Wesley Willis said...

If CDC is able to convince the NCAA to give Pachall a MRS for being a dumbfuck then I nominate him for President of the United Statesd because clearly he is the most incredible pitchman ever created and would solve every problem facing our nation.

I think I should've rephrased the question a bit - clearly, all things equal you'd rather have Pachall because he is more talented. But is it worth rolling the dice on a guy the team may not ever fully trust again and who could be a ticking time bomb when TB is a sure thing?

Tyler said...


Pros: Extremely high upside... could easily be Heisman type of talent. At the very least should be consistent and create a steady passing game. Downside is low.

Cons: A complete wildcard on character. Most die hard TCU fans will be have a heart attack every time they hear the word "Pachall" outside of gameday until January 2014 rolls around. A very possible, but highly unlikely situation where the team doesn't play as hard (former players have said they would play hard for the best person for the job... don't have to be friends, just have to win a NC)


Pros: Tough, mobile, reliable to not go DWI on us, and we still aren't sure exactly how high his upside is. Could be sky high with more time and a better OLine.

Cons: A complete wildcard in terms of playing ability. Could be just fine, but if he doesn't improve we will waste our best chance at a NC. 2013 is the year for us to win it all, and he has to improve significantly for us to go undefeated, or even undefeated in conference play.

Do you take your wildcard on character or playing ability? Personally, it's all about winning a NC, and I think the odds are better that Pachall stays clean and plays the entire year than the odds that Boykin improves his game to a NC level type of QB play by the time we play LSU.

TCU Dave said...

Pachall is a, umm, oh yeah - A COLLEGE STUDENT. They make mistakes, and the kids on a high profile team like the Frogs have every one of their mistakes shared with the entire known world, and probably the aliens who are monitoring us preparatory to the invasion on Dec 21st (or whatever it is that is supposed to end the world this time. That kind of pressure and attention simply makes me amazed that this kind of thing doesn't happen every day.
Pachall made a mistake, took care of it, and should be given another chance. Coach P handled this with his usual unique class - most FBS coaches would have covered up, lied, ignored the problem and made it inexorably worse in the long term. Pachall was held accountable but also handled with the class and compassion one would expect from T Christian U. Sometimes we forget that TCU should handle things differently - we need to be thankful that Coach P understands what really matters and what is not all that important. Pachall should be allowed back, and he and Boykin should be allowed to fairly, and equally, compete for the starting job.
All of you who have never made a mistake, please speak up! Otherwise, let's be glad that we have a coach and a university who understand what is really important in life, and what is just a game.

Ed said...

^ This.

I must admit, watching Boykin at QB is an experience filled with uncertainty. He seems to provide highlight-type plays more often than I remember from Pachall, but you cannot beat Pachall's overall consistency. We all like to draw distinctions between Pachall and Dalton, but I really think Pachall learned a lot from watching that lovable ginger. This is exactly what Boykin needs. We've seen him make amazing throws, and Kerley-like runs. But he cannot consistently read coverage.

Pachall needs to Dalton-up next season and provide mentoring to Boykin and Matthews that he received from Dalton. (Don't forget about Matthews.)

Anyway, Patterson is a genius. He will make the right decision like he always has (screw the "bloggers" and "analysts" that said Patterson gave Pachall special treatment).

Guerne Blanston said...

CP coming back doesn't mean TB sits... coaches were all set to use him at RB, remember? Why wouldn't that be a fine plan in '13? I think the team wants to win, and will stand behind CP if he's really got his nonsense worked out. BTW, kid his age, IMHO needed discipline, not treatment. I don't claim to know the boy, but come on. You can't fix stupid, but immature is curable.

LezzGetFroggy said...

@Guerne Blanston with Waymon, Catalon, and Aaron Green our RBs should be fine

FrogsUTD said...
This comment has been removed by the author.
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